My Way (with Ivan Buric)

Ivan (00:01.742)
Tillman, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure. Where are you based at the moment? So at the moment, I'm in Cape Town, South Africa. So that's where I usually spend my summers, so as said, our winters in Europe. And usually I live in Portugal, Lisbon. Amazing. So let's start by digging into a little bit more about yourself. You have a...

fascinating professional background from leading BDR teams to advocating remote work and hosting podcasts as well. Could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your journey and what drives your passion in these areas? Yeah, for sure. So I've been, yeah, if I look back, I've been, I've always had like international life. So I've studied in Holland, Colombia, Spain, Barcelona, and afterwards in Sweden. So I moved a lot around doing my studies, so to say.

And then I started to at some point say, look, I want to live by the beach. I want to keep moving. So I need a remote job. And so that's how I kind of also slipped into sales or first slipped into sales, of course, and then moved that into a remote setting. And, and yeah, so also during these times, I met a lot of international people. So that makes also my friend group all over the world, so to say. And so also my last 13 years, I've just been moving around a lot and spending this time on a professional note. So I've been

Yeah, and software sales for the last seven to eight years, just a normal route from the bottom to the top, or not top, top, but from the bottom up, so to say. So I started as an so -called account executive, where basically, yeah, was like a business developer that was closing deals and also afterwards taking care of them, and then moved more into specialized roles, which is the business development roles, where we basically, in the software industry, focus mostly on.

dividing the part of new business, so opening new opportunities, and then passing them over to the next team. And so currently I'm joined a company called Workflex the last two weeks ago, actually, where the BDR team leads and we're building, let's say, the EMEA team, where we want to conquer the world, so to say, and make it possible for everybody to work remotely on a compliance level. And that's this aspect at this moment. And maybe to the other topics,

Ivan (02:25.87)
Surely we're gonna get more in depth into it. I've been, yeah, I'm co -hosting another podcast for the Artists Circus, which is like a learning, or like a software people's community, so to say, in the European area where we just try to exchange ideas on sales, on revenue topics, so to say. So we have like a very specialized podcast there. And yeah, that's about it.

Thanks for the introduction and I'll definitely ask more questions about it. But just to get a snippet about finding yourself hosting this revenue circus podcast that puts you at the center of Europe's sales, customer success communities. How did you find yourself there? Yeah, it's quite a funny story actually. So it came all together through starting to post on LinkedIn. So around one or two years ago, I started...

post a bit more on LinkedIn to share my journey on being a remote person working in software sales, so to say. And I tried in the beginning to just have coffee chats, basically connect with a lot of people. And then afterwards started to post about day -to -day life two, three times a week. And through this, I met Tom, which is Dominic Klingberg, who's the owner and CEO of

of the artist circus and they basically said, look, we want to have this podcast format. Why don't you want to help us and become a co -host there? And so that was actually the quick way. And it's been quite fun so far. It's a new challenge, of course, to interview other people on very specific and deep tech topics, so to say. But it's been fun. It's been good. And we'll definitely dive deeper into that. But...

First thing first, I'm curious about your BDR experience and for the people that are not too much tech savvy, can you describe what does BDR mean and as well who needs a BDR team and what's the role in the sales process of the BDR team or individuals? Yeah, for sure. No problem at all. So I mean, if you look at normal organizations or software organizations, when they're quite small, they usually have

Ivan (04:47.566)
They hire their first salespeople, so it's like a head of sales or an account executive usually. And they do the so -called full cycle. So they will go from prospecting over to closing deals and then maybe even keeping these customers happy and trying to sell more products into them. And at some point, if you want to scale an organization efficiently and you have enough so -called.

ARR so like each customer brings you above 15 to 20 ,000 euros per year for example then it makes sense to bring in a BDR team and the BDR team is responsible for generating pipeline so we basically generate reaching out to a lot of different people different companies at the interest of the of the given company in order to open their interest first of all on the product and then afterwards yeah we book

basically meetings, introductionary meetings for other teams, because it's just a very, very tedious work. And that's also why we, it's more like a, seen as a sales entrance role, where you really learn how to cold call, how to do LinkedIn outreach, for example, how to be very, yeah, develop skills in order to gain attention of people that you don't know, and show them, look, I have a good solution for your challenges currently. And yeah, it's a cool little, cool little,

setting specifically for new joiners. So people that want to break into software sales, you have to learn the basics to get there. And then you can go basically afterwards to closing deals and still you always have to generate pipeline as we say. And I'm curious about those building blocks or foundations. So in your journey about creating BDR organizations, what are the pillars or foundations where you focus?

So in building these teams, so currently at the company, a joint workplex, we're also very fresh in this segment. So we have like, it's a company that's been two years old, we do remote work compliance setups. So if you want to be on a vacation, for example, when I go to Cape Town, like me now for two months or something, you just need papers and insurances in order to make it compliant for your company. At the same things also for business travel, if you want to travel outside internationally.

Ivan (07:05.614)
for you outside of Italy, for example, for me outside of Portugal, then I actually need papers in order to do this in a compliant way and to not get any fines. So really big companies like Smart or Mercedes and so on, they are interested in these solutions. And so for us, it's of course very important to first of all define the so -called ICP, the idea custom persona. As soon as we know that, then we also see, okay, in which channels are they available? So where...

which kind of media they're usually consuming, how can we reach them, what kind of platforms they're using, like LinkedIn or Twitter or Facebook or whatever. And then we kind of build around that. We build like a playbook. This playbook tells our new joiners or our team then look, it would be good if you use like an email and the combination was a phone number, was a phone call and a LinkedIn message, for example, in different rhythms or different structures, so to say, in order to reach these people.

And this is your pitching material. So that's kind of the way how you, how we would like you to speak to this target audience. Also, how can you make yourself heard? How can you try to discover really their challenges, understand if it's, if they have this challenge that I can actually go into the conversation or not. And so that's, yeah, the first part, let's say, so ICP, then we have the playbook. We also try to get in. So it's more like the knowledge aspect. And then afterwards, we just, yeah, I try to.

teach on -couch my team very tightly and just give them the skills they need in order to really be effective and also produce basically meetings that they can turn into potential new customers for our company, so to say. So it's a bit of everything in a sense. It's quite interesting.

because it's also not easy, of course, because we're at the moment a team of 18 people to the end of the year, which means a lot of onboarding. So we have to teach a lot of people how our way of working, so to say. We have to teach them what's the product about. We have to keep like quality in there, because it's also like a brand image and so on and so on. So it's loads of people management on one hand, on the other side is also a lot of documentation, of course. It's a lot of having the right people on board.

Ivan (09:26.03)
that really want to go through the roof as well that have the same mission and passion as well. And for us, another topic is also that we're fully remote. So we don't have any offices. We can travel the world all the time. I have people working from different time zones for the German market, for example. So yeah, we have, it's using async communication style at the moment. So we do a lot of Vidyard on Bloom videos, which is like small videos you just record for your colleagues. And then you have conversations this way instead of.

just the standard meeting. So it's a bit of a new way for me to learn at the moment as well. But it's a super interesting cause that allows me also to be free, basically, location independent and be very flexible in my day -to -day work. Plus, of course, my employees or our employees have to learn that in a way to use this power on one hand, on the other hand, also have the responsibility to deliver results as it's sales in the end. And it's always a numbers game, so to say.

Yeah, and probably there has never been a better time to work remotely with all this available technology. On the other hand, still, what do you believe are the qualities that you're looking for in people to be able to rely on them remotely, considering cultural fit, time zones, and also their abilities to work independently without the chance to meet in person in a physical office?

Yeah, I think you definitely need a very different set of skills or people that you hire. So they need to be very self -driven, of course. So if we have an async setup, we basically only connect via Zoom or Teams just to chat with each other or give each other once in a while a call to say, but you have to be very self -driven. You have to be able to find your own solutions in a sense. You have to really want to deliver results. And I don't care when you do it, basically, right? You can.

go do it if you want to go for a surf or something, then do that. But at some point I want to see results or we need to deliver results. And so it's a lot of like, yeah, you have to be able to deal with a lot of rejection. So to say like on your own, when you sit at home, for example, or like in a co working space. And then of course, also doing a day to day job is a lot of rejection because people most of the times don't want to talk to you. So some resilience to bounce back from that, of course, is very important. And

Ivan (11:51.15)
Yeah, I guess in the end also like the flexibility that you get from working in this kind of setup, you need to appreciate that to some extent. And also just be very, you have to be reliable on if you say a word, if you say, look, I gotta be there, I gotta do this. And then I expect that it will happen. And if it doesn't happen, and this is too much, then too many times it doesn't happen. So to say, then we have to have a talk basically and see if that's actually the right fit for the company at this moment.

But yeah, so in the end, I think remote work is very cool. It's a nice setup. I've been doing it now for six years already as well. On the other hand, it's also not for everyone, as you need to bring different skill sets, you need to learn how to do it also sustainably without getting too bored around it or without having social, real -time people around you, so to say. And at the same time, how can you stay also very, very...

productive in a sense, plus, of course, it's more on a personal note. How can you make a cut between working from your bedroom to having this as your private living space where you enjoy your free time basically. So there's a lot of issues that can arise if you don't address them or if you don't have a system for that, specifically if you want to stay very productive and do it for a long time. What about you touched base on so many interesting topics and...

Now there is still this trend of companies wanting to transition from physical to digital or remote. And for those companies, what do you believe they can expect in terms of main challenges and also potentially challenges that you faced in this transition? And what can be potentially a good solution to this challenge? Yeah, I mean, one set up is...

I think one of the most important aspects is actually to have the DNA of a remote company or you have to somehow bring the DNA of a remote company into your setup, meaning that, for example, leadership needs to kind of live this remote setup as well instead of just giving it as a benefit that doesn't really work usually.

Ivan (14:06.222)
because people just like say, cool, I want to do it, but the manager doesn't really like it. So they want to use this benefit even though they have it available, for example. So that's really big issue. Then of course, afterwards, how can you communicate? Do you have the right tool stack in order to facilitate remote workers and in office people? So for meetings, I mean, you have Zoom and you have Teams and all these things, but I mean, if you have a room of six people, for example, and you have like two employees joining via Zoom, so Zoomer Teams, they will miss probably like 80%.

let's say 50 % of the non -verbal communication. So how can you make sure that all these things are transported through everyone? And in the end, of course, in a normal office, you will have coffee chats, for example, you just walk over, talk to someone, how can you really facilitate it in a remote setting? So it's actually harder than you think. It's not just, oh, I'll take your laptop work from somewhere else. I mean, you will have then also the compliance aspect that Workflex is selling in a sense.

but also for internal culture and company. You need to really go all in or educate everyone, specifically people, as we described before, that might not have the right mind set up or the right skill set for being fully remote. For example, that's going to be a tricky one as well because also you have a bit of a honey, I always call it a honeymoon effect.

Well, you basically go on holidays. You go to, I don't know, you go to Cape Town now for two weeks, for example, to work from here. You arrive and he's like, oh, I want to do everything. Basically work whatever, four hours a day, get things done to some extent, but not fully. And because I want to lay by the beach and go explore the beautiful nature around here. And that's just not going to work because it's just another, it should just be another day in your work life, so to say. And then you close your laptop at some point, like six, seven o 'clock, whenever you're done. And, um,

then you can enjoy a free time. So it's, if you don't do it for a long time, you have a lot of these honeymoon effects where you just get distracted by everything around you, or you go party too much, or you enjoy the nightlife and all these things. And then you just will slack off during the days. And that's what many companies then go wrong as well, because they will say, oh, well, it doesn't work because people don't work anymore. Say, look, maybe it's the wrong setup. They don't do it long enough. They don't have any mentors. They can really...

Ivan (16:25.902)
follow to say they want to do like one from the beach and then their laptop overheats and all these things. I mean, it's silly and stupid things, but it's in the end. There should be a more well thought through process than it is. It seems in the beginning. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I also thought at the beginning that I could, you know, bring my laptop anywhere and just work. Sometimes it does, but for most of the times you really need a professional set up environment that.

supports a full working day wherever you are. And it's not always taken for granted that you can find this environment everywhere you go. And I'm curious also about the future. Have you ever thought about what's going to be the future of remote work? What do you foresee as the next level? So we've achieved so much after the pandemic and all of these new trends.

and facilities for remote work. What do you believe is the next step after this? One aspect is, if you look at Germany specifically, you have a bit of a trend going back. A lot of people, because they're doing COVID, they had to do remote work. Now they have the ability to call everybody back. Also, big companies have rented a lot of offices for a long time, so of course they have to use them to not waste too much money. There's a bit of a trend actually of companies.

rowing back and want everybody in the office, maybe one, two, three days a week, for example, because it's also like bosses or leaders that just, they only know this way, for example. So that's gonna, that's, yeah, it's back and forth a bit. In other countries, of course, you have a bit more remote work and it's still gonna be, and everybody, also our generation wants to, of course, be in a remote setting. So that's, of course, very lucky for us. And I believe,

The future could be, I mean, specifically for the S. If you look now at the Apple, I don't know, the Apple glasses, I don't know what they're called. I mean, that's kind of the future, I believe, that will also come to remote work that you just don't meet in person. But you will have a virtual office where you basically sit at home and you can walk through this and you see, I think Facebook made it as well, also in Metaverse, basically you have your.

Ivan (18:44.046)
see other people's characters walk in there and you can just meet them in an office. And this could be, let's say, give it a few years, of course, a new way of remote work to some extent, because it gets very personal on one hand. I mean, it's just a different medium, basically, we meet in. On the other side, specifically also for us as a road company now, we see that we will have to meet once in a while. So we meet every two months or we just came back from a Greece trip.

for like a week flew basically the revenue team there, 20, 25 people to just meet and yeah, enjoy each other's company and have some beers together basically and some nice lunches and dinners. This interpersonal connection will probably not be, or can't be handled really fully via Metaverse, but we don't know yet what other creepy things will come up. I mean, as soon as you can start feeling people through like your computer and stuff, I mean, then it's gonna get super weird.

or smell people through the Metaverse, it's going to be very weird as well. But it's mimicking real life and it might go this way, but I still believe people still want to see each other and be just people in the end without being fully remote all the time. Yeah, we're still social animals, so we can trick somehow part of us through technology, but there's still this priming need to...

to be next to someone physically, but still having this opportunity to have the freedom that you mentioned, the flexibility, I think it opens up an infinite bunch of opportunities that were potentially not possible five to 10 years ago. I want to touch base on the last point because I want to hear your practical advice. So when you need to travel somewhere for, let's say more than a week,

What are you looking for in the spot that you're booking? So obviously things like Wi -Fi, connectivity, quiet spaces. But other than that, now that you've been doing that for quite some time, what are your must -haves when picking a new accommodation?

Ivan (21:02.062)
Yeah, so basically for me, it's, I mean, I travel usually for kite surfing and surfing. So that's the last six years been kind of this main mission. So I always look where's the wind available, but of course it's a very private, very personal preference. So if you take that away, so what I always look for is I try to book with some friends together. So we usually get some big villa, for example, with five, six people.

where you have like your own rooms, so you need a bit of privacy for example, specifically if you stay longer like in a place, you just need that for, I need that at least for myself. And then we also have, yeah, good internet. What I'm most of the times check also, can I get like a SIM card or something just to have backup, backup internet. Then like in Cape Town, for example, we have so -called low chatting, which is like power cuts.

So then you have to understand, okay, the house we're staying, do they have solar panels? Do they have like a battery that you can plug in your laptop during the time? Luckily we have solar panels here, for example, so it's all good. But then if you stay somewhere else, it can be a big problem because you just won't have power for like four or five hours. And then also your laptops run out, the internet will run out and so on and so on. So that's a few things. And on the other hand, yeah, I mean, as I've done quite a long time, I...

I usually also look for, okay, is there good restaurants around or how can we make sure that also the evenings, the evening program can be fun. So for me, it's then kite surfing or surfing. But then in the end also like, I don't know, sometimes I'm in Brazil as well. So I see, look, can I do something new? Can I visit some dunes, for example, or some nice national parks and just have a bit of a bit of everything. But everything also like I try to keep it as close as possible. So after.

you have after work, like two, three hours, where you would usually go to the gym or walk around or whatever. You just do that instead. And then on the weekends, you can explore more and have more like holiday mode. So yeah, that's a few recommendations. So really think about it also what you need personally. What is important to you? What would you have in your normal life at home that you need? And then don't make it, yeah, don't make it something too special because in the end, it's just a day.

Ivan (23:18.702)
of your work life, so to say, and then you have some cool aspects afterwards that you can enjoy. Yeah. Besides the classic Googling, is there any community portal website that you visit to get recommendations from potentially other remote workers? I mean, for me, as I've done it like six, seven years already, I have the kite surfing community, so to say. So we like exchange more like spots.

Well, like things like, okay, where is it good? So as a good kite sport, what's the internet and so on and so on. And otherwise I would say Reddit, I guess, depends where you go. Reddit would be a good one. You can always text the Airbnb host to do like a speed test. So the speed test website, just like, hey, plug this in, let me know how quick your internet is. Basically it's usually quite good. And then I tell them also let's do one, I don't know, eight in the morning and midday, because like they can also. Variate quite a lot depends where you are.

And otherwise just blogs, I think. So it's not, I think it's, you can't really generically say it because it depends on the country where you go and then you have a look what kind of travelers usually would find there. And then you can usually dig up something via maybe Facebook even, there might be Facebook groups. So yeah, all kinds of media that would be used to share this information. Just have a look and go with that. Yeah.

Sounds good. Now shifting gears a little bit, let's talk about your podcast. You touched base on how you ended up there, but moreover, what is it about and why is it relevant today? I'm one of the 10 co -hosts there. It's the Revenue Circus Podcast, it's called. What we do is we interview individual contributors, so basically people that actively work in sales.

BDRs we spoke about that do a lot of meeting bookings and account executives, they do closing. Then we try to speak to everything that is not in leadership basically in this revenue organization up towards the people that do customer success. So basically once you buy a software, then you start using it. Then usually afterwards you have some person that will help you to set it up like the onboarding team. And then you have a customer success person that will just check in with you once in a while to see if everything is fine.

Ivan (25:43.918)
And so the podcast is specified for ICs. So we interview them. We speak about their best trips and tricks. It's like, it's a nice format, because it's just 30 minutes. And we also want to take, so at least the people that I interview, I like to always take out two to three ad hoc tips that a person that listens to it can really apply them straight ahead into their daily lives. So yeah, it's been well perceived so far. It's still in the starting set up.

and it's also supporting an event that is coming up in April, the Artists Circus event in Berlin. And it's been good, it's been great, it's a good learning curve as well. And every interview I do, I also learn new things from it, which is of course great. Can you share one lesson or one tip that really stood out from the interviews that you had so far?

Ivan (26:38.574)
I mean, they're very technique specific, so to say as well. But if I look back, I interviewed an account executive, for example, who was moving. So he started as a customer as a customer success manager, so to say. So he was basically helping people to use a software, keep using the software and he did some upselling where he just like tries to sell new modules into this person. For example, then he moved into like a new business role where you basically then speak.

all the time to new prospects or to new people that could be interested in your solution, so to say. And well, one really good tip of him was to sometimes take a break, you know, listen really carefully to your customers that you understand their needs, and only then like try to pitch your solution in a sense. And that's a really nice point or twisting point, so to say, because most people think they have to, most sales people's with a dream.

think they have to talk the whole time in order to win a deal. On the other hand, it's actually the other way around. You have to understand and listen more. The least you speak, the better actually, in most cases. And then you basically... say that we have two ears and one mouth for a reason that we should listen at least twice compared to what we'd say. Exactly. No, a hundred percent. And that's a good tip. I mean, you can use it also on your...

or your private life in the end, you know, if you listen to someone, if you have a conversation, the person that speaks the most will feel better after the call than the other person that just speaks less. So it's both ways. Perfect. One thing that I'm really intrigued about, and I believe for myself, it would be the most important question for this episode. What has been the...

impact so far for you on your professional and personal life since you've started hosting a podcast.

Ivan (28:38.19)
I mean, you, you're in the beginning of starting your podcast as a rights. It's going to be interesting to hear feedback at, at some point or soon as well, of course.

So far, not too much actually. I mean, I see that I get more engagement on my LinkedIn posts, for example. It's more like the professional life and you will always have a silent LinkedIn followers, so to say, that will recognize your face or like your logo or I mean, you have a nice little podcast logo there as well. Designs that they will recognize, they will recognize your voice maybe, but they won't comment on it. So you have a lot of them. Then you have a few power people. They will always comment and like and do things around there, which is quite interesting to see.

and understand. And then you have people that also engage with you personally in a sense and really just say, look, this and this happened. So in a nutshell, nothing has really changed. I think there's also like a long -term game in the end. So you have to just do it, provide it. And then after a few years, you might get some other opportunities. But in general, if I look back at being more present on LinkedIn or professional networks, I to say,

I've been invited to quite a few podcasts, spoken at some events, at two specific topics, for example. Now in Berlin, I will host a stage for this one event, which is also quite exciting. And you just get to know a lot of people through these kind of virtual coffee chats that you set up before the meetings, which is very cool. And then in the end, you can always, of course, either meet them in person.

So what I do try to do in Cape Town to meet once in a while. Some people in person that are also here that I have, that I'm just friends with over LinkedIn, for example. And on the other hand, you can also of course get business opportunities out of it. So this one, the new job I'm starting now, just came out of my personal network and was in two weeks at a new job. So it was quite exciting and quick. So I would recommend it to everyone. Get active on LinkedIn and broadening network, talk to people, get to know them.

Ivan (30:44.174)
See if you like them, if you like them, hang out, otherwise move on, so to say. Yeah. Sometimes we tend to forget that we have real people behind the LinkedIn profiles that like as well to interact, engage, build relationships, build business together. So it's always a good reminder to talk and to be more present if you want more opportunities. 100%. Yeah. 100%. How's it been for you? Like in the last, I mean, I'm not even sure how long.

You've been on the podcast yet. What's your first learnings? So far, the podcast has not been launched yet, which means that I'm still pre -recording some episodes because I want to have a track record once it's launched. I see it as a great opportunity to sit down with people like yourself, just exchange information and genuinely share what other people have to say.

leveraging their experiences, their mistakes, their takeaways. So for me, it's just a personal way to connect. The same way you mentioned that it happens on LinkedIn, on networking events, I see podcasting as just a good opportunity to focus for half an hour, for an hour with a person to put the phone on mute, to genuinely ask questions and listen to answers, and hopefully impact...

other people, other careers, just by sharing this content. So it just feels good to contribute somehow without any expectation at the beginning. I feel that in today's crowded world of information, focusing on quality rather than quantity and on topics that bring value is something that we need more of, so trying to contribute to that.

Great, definitely. Last question, before I let you go. First of all, I want to hear more about this event. Where can people find out more about it? Is there a website, a link, or somewhere where they can get more information? And if you can just summarize what can they expect by joining it? Yes, of course. So it's going to be, it's called the Artist Circus event. I think best is just to go via my LinkedIn. So you're going to post it probably also below the episode.

Ivan (33:11.726)
I will post about it on the 19th of April and it's going to be in Berlin. And so basically it's one day of individual contributors and people sharing their own stories or sales techniques as well. So there's different topics, different stages where you just go in for workshops. For example, I will do a workshop on remote work, exactly what we spoke about it today. What's my experiences, what's my takeaways, how to stay compliant as well. So we're going to bring this kind of topic in there as well.

but it's not an advertising event. It's more like we just to share and meet like -minded people. And then exactly what you said, there's all the sales community in here or like most German sales community, tech sales community will meet there for, yeah, one of the first time, so to say in person, which can be great. And in the end, there will be of course a bit of a party or like an after event set up. So yeah, I think that's the easiest way to either go artistcircus .com, I think it should be.

or go via my LinkedIn. You can of course ping me as well for some information. And let's hope of course that also this episode is released before the event starts in a sense. I'm personally also not within the event. I'm just supporting one of the owners to host one of the stages as he's been always very kind and a very good man. It's the first time doing it as well. And so it's gonna be...

Let's see, I think it's going to be a great success and it's going to be the first time, as I said, to really see these face behind the LinkedIn profiles and all the comments and messages on LinkedIn, so to say, which is going to be cool. And we'll also add this interpersonal butterfly, I was called it, hopefully to it. Yeah, so yeah, feel free to join if you want to get into tech sales, if you're in tech sales, really cool and it's going to be fun.

Perfect, we'll put all the links in the show note. And as we wrap up our conversation till, what has been the best piece of advice you received or learned on your journey that you'd like to pass out to the listeners, especially for the aspiring ones into sales, BTR, remote work or podcasting?

Ivan (35:33.102)
I mean, if you look at the career perspective, I would say if you want to break into tech sales, for example, I wouldn't recommend remote work in the beginning specifically because it's easier just to learn in an office, so to say, and try to join maybe one of the big organizations like Microsoft or Salesforce or LinkedIn, just to learn kind of from really good established companies. And usually they've also sales trainers there, so that helps a lot.

If you join the startup, then you won't have that. And specifically in a remote work company, if that is not well set up, you also maybe miss out on a lot of information. So I wouldn't recommend it, even though of course it's nice to be remote available, so to say. And on the other hand, yeah, always try to follow the people that you look up to. Don't hesitate to contact them, try to talk to them. And also what I learned only like a few years later now actually is to...

Once you're in it, you have the possibility to try to maybe find yourself a mentor, someone that you can just bounce off some ideas and get to understand what's going on. And then the very last tip, I think also specifically for the sales career aspect is don't rush. Take your time. You will have to learn the basics, the sales grind, the cold calling, the very dirty work, so to say, in order to progress because later on in your...

career, wherever you want to go, it's going to be very needed. Specifically, also in leadership, you need to know the basics, you need to teach them someone else. And if you haven't learned them, if you haven't spent enough time in it, then it's going to be very hard. And of course, you also wouldn't want that. So it's not a race in the end, it's a marathon. So all step by step. And in the end, of course, you never forget your life next to it. Because I mean, that's also very important to not overwork yourself, so to say.

Tillman, thank you so much. Before we let you go, where can people find you online? Yeah, so as mentioned before, I think the best way would be to go via my LinkedIn. So it's tillman, T -I -L -L -M -A -N .horn. Or it was out the dot, just horn. Yeah, add me, ping me. Of course, if you want to have a coffee chat, I'm always happy to have a chat about all kinds of topics, remote work or sales or kite surfing, anything.

Ivan (37:54.094)
And yeah, I think that's the best way. And yeah, it was great to be on the show. Thanks a lot for inviting. It was a pleasure. Thanks for being here once again. Enjoy your surfing day probably at some point in South Africa. So jealous about it and looking forward to following you online. Thank you. Have a good one. Bye.